It can be an appealing thing to hear someone berate nihilism, and it can be a terrifying thing to hear someone support it. Irrespective of their beliefs about meaning, many people live in an existentially fascinating manner. Nihilism (the belief that nothing is meaningful) is something seldom displayed in the actions of others, yet a conversation with many people might quickly uncover that they know little to nothing about the issue of meaning, however sincere they are about how they live. The process of living out daily actions is often ironic and paradoxical, as a nihilist could still live as if some things are intrinsically meaningful, and an absurdist (a skeptic of meaning) could still live like a functional nihilist.
It is not unusual to find people who keep belief nihilism at bay with some subjective attachment to a thing like family, friendship, self-actualization, sexuality, a career, or entertainment. None of these things are meaningful just because they supply someone with feelings of significance, of course. Even in a nihilistic universe people could still feel like some things are meaningful, though these feelings would only amount to irrelevant, subjective perceptions. Yet if you ask someone what they live for you will likely hear one of these things somehow get incorporated into the answer. Relationships, pleasure, and personal goals are often what people cling to in order to find a sense of fulfillment, however incomplete that sense may be. That most or all people treat something as valuable, logic shows, does not mean it is valuable, though. Likewise, it does not follow from the subjectivity of perceiving some things to be personally meaningful that meaning does not exist.
The disconnect between perceptions of meaning and the metaphysical existence or nonexistence of meaning reveals that there is no such thing as a refutation of nihilism itself, only a refutation of arguments for nihilism, whether those arguments are based on the conflicting nature of claims about values, the possible elusiveness of a sense of meaning, or on atheism. This is because there is no set of premises that are both correct and verifiable from which it follows inescapably that meaning exists, and there is no set of premises (again, correct and verifiable) from which it follows inescapably that meaning does not exist. Thus, in refuting arguments for nihilism, one does not refute nihilism as a concept. This is analogous to how refuting arguments for the existence of God does not refute theism itself.
Yes, God--an uncaused cause, something that has always existed that has created other things (but not all other things [1])--exists [2], but this alone does not necessitate that meaning also exists. If meaning exists, it can only be grounded in God, but the existence of God is not airtight proof of meaning. The error of some declarations of theism is that they treat the existence of God as if the mere existence of any deity by necessity means that certain things are meaningful. Ultimately, skepticism about meaning is as far as humans can advance on the level of strict logical proofs, while commitment to (not belief in) Christian theism remains warranted because of the numerous evidences, not proofs, that point towards it. The nuances of reality may not be grasped by the majority, but reality is indeed layered with a multitude of nuances.
[1]. https://thechristianrationalist.blogspot.com/2018/04/the-impossibility-of-absolutely-nothing.html
[2]. https://thechristianrationalist.blogspot.com/2017/04/the-uncaused-cause.html
Most people, most of the time have no real concept of meaning, nor interest, beyond their immediate impulses which are tied to the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life - which are ALL that is in the world(1 John2:16).
ReplyDeleteBeyond that, objective meaning requires God, who is beyond the temporal state of the universe and its decay, to exist, see Ecclesiastes. And yes, the mere existence of such a being defines objective meaning as in objective moral laws by his own power and decree, simply because that being would be the measure by which all is compared against...in a very abstract terms as the point of origin that determines a system of coordinates.
And as that point of origin, God did in fact create all other things...All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. - John 1:3
Whether or not meaning exists has absolutely nothing to do with the temporality of the cosmos. Something can be intrinsically meaningful even if it doesn’t last forever, and the opposite can be true. I don’t think you understand what I was saying about the existence of meaning. Of course meaning can only exist if God does, and I affirmed that; however, just because a deity exists does not mean that meaning does as well. An amoral deity could hypothetically exist. An uncaused cause does not have to be a deity like Yahweh.
DeleteIt is impossible for things like truth, logic, and space to not exist, whether or not there is a God. Are you saying it was not true that God existed before the physical universe? Was God not God (the law of identity) before the universe? There is no way truth could not exist, since there cannot not be a way reality is. And something cannot be anything other than what it is. Some things always follow from other things, whether or not God exists. Additionally, space, a dimension which could hold matter even if there is currently no matter in it, cannot not exist, and it must by necessity have no boundary. God created every type of created thing, not every single other thing that exists. Without God there are no values—there can be no such thing as moral obligations, beauty, or existential significance if there is no deity. But logical truths don’t depend on anything else for their necessary existence and intrinsic veracity.
If God does exist outside of time and space apart from, and therefore not subject to, creation, then space (and time) must have a boundary.
ReplyDeleteIf we were actually living in a computer simulation, our sense of space would be revealed as nothing more than a construct that only exists within the parameters of the computer code. And we'd perceive that matter and energy appear to occupy space, but outside the video game, we'd clearly see that it was all just a bunch of numbers...and numbers don't take up or require space.
So then space is really just a mental concept and product of a physical creation. So then before the beginning, before anything was made and there was only God was space even necessary? It's kinda irrelevant, but the main point is that God doesn't depend on anything nor does anything (including logic, numbers, time, or space) supersede God.
Matter can certainly be finite, but space is only a dimension that COULD hold matter, not the “product of a physical creation,” since it is not made of matter itself. There is no boundary point past which there is no such thing as space, because matter might still be placed beyond any possible boundary. There is no such thing as any reality without space, so space had to exist prior to God’s creation of matter.
DeleteTime had to have a beginning because an infinite past would mean that the present moment could never be reached, and the present moment both exists and cannot be illusory. But logic exists even if no minds or material objects do. Logic is a series of immaterial, inviolable, omnipresent laws. Logic does not depend on anything else. Even if there was no God and thus no creation, there would still be a way reality is, reality would still be what it is, concepts would still be what they are (though no mind would exist to grasp them), and sound conclusions would still follow from premises.
You two are hilarious, you should be friends.:P I get what you both are saying but 7 seal has a good point. How DO you explain John 1:3?
ReplyDeleteThe Bible can only be right if its contents correspond to the way reality is. Since logic cannot be false, if the Bible contradicted logic it would itself be false at least on the matter in question. So if the Bible truly did teach that logic or space had a beginning then that part of the Bible would be objectively incorrect.
DeleteBut John 1:3 makes it very clear that the author is saying that all categories of CREATED things were created by God. The verse says that without God and Christ nothing was made "that has been made." Logic, space, and truth were never made because they cannot not exist, even if there was no God at all. But if there was no God then all created things like matter and time would not and could not exist.
Logic is the one tool that is self-evident, is self-verifying, and that has necessary existence (meaning it must exist by its very nature). Things like the scientific method, the historical method, and the Bible are not any of those things. They must be verified on their own.
Also, 7 seal has repeatedly shown that he or she has little to no grasp of almost anything about logic, Biblical theology, or broader philosophy and persists in clinging to errors and fallacies. You know, Isabell, how little I care to interact with such people if they do not change their worldviews when confronted with reality. 7 seal's assumptions, contradictions, and fallacies will not change the way reality is.
It sounds like 7 seal's just trying to have an intellectual conversation with you because he/she has read your blogs. I mean, this person seems to be at least somewhat philosophical like you and c'mon, I disagree with you about the same old stuff a lot too. (at least until I figure out if you're wrong or not. XD) Okay, so I get what you're saying about the John verse, but what about this other one I found from Revelation 4:11? I read your blog about the things you say God did not create, but space wasn't one of them. Why exactly do you think space exists without God?
Delete(Btw, I searched the internet for sites about what exactly God did, or did not create. I couldn't find anything. I have to hand it to you for writing about this topic, even if I'm not sure I agree.)
Again, John 1:3 clarifies what passages like Revelation 4:11 mean. Even on 7 seal’s position God still couldn’t have created everything, since God is something, and so he still could not have a created all things, since he preceded creation. But I’ve explained already why logic and space are not God and have their own separate existences.
DeleteThe Bible can’t be correct anywhere it contradicts logic. So if it really did teach what 7 seal claims, or anything else that is logically impossible, it would be a book that contains errors. The thing is that all alleged discrepancies between logic and Scripture that I know of are not discrepancies at all. However, logic can’t be false, and many parts of the Bible hypothetically could be. We’ve talked before about how most of Christianity can only be evidentially defended, not proven in full.
Space is just an area where matter could go. Thus, if there is no matter (pre-creation) there is still space. Now, even if God didn’t exist, there would still be space, just like there would still be logic. What is uncreated cannot have a beginning and cannot depend on anything else. But since an uncaused cause is logically necessary, given how reality is, something else has always existed that brought matter into existence: God. Logic and space are immaterial and must exist by pure necessity, but they cannot create anything else.
I’m not surprised that you couldn’t find anything else on the subject. Whether it’s why logic and space can’t not exist, or how one can know that he/she isn’t dreaming or has a body, or various facets of relationships, epistemology, and Biblical ethics, almost no one else (if anyone) writes about the things I do. Just writing about how genuine rationalism and Biblical Christianity intersect on an issue alone is scarcely brought up.
But when Rev 4:11 says God made everything, isn't logic included in that? I think I'm just worried that you're putting limitations on God. If He wants you to be awake and asleep at the same time, I wouldn't put it past Him to do that even if it's above our understanding. I'm worried that you're putting logic above Him somehow.
DeleteOh, and don't get me wrong, I don't completely agree with 7 seal, I just think he/she has a good point.
No. God created all categories of created things, and that is all that he could even possibly make. I already have proven that things like logic and space cannot not exist and thus cannot have been created. Besides, John 1:3 clarifies just what is meant by passages like Revelation 4:11, and it is clearly not referring to everything. But if a logical truth did contradict the Bible, the Bible would be what is in error, not logic.
DeleteThe idea that God having limitations is impossible is a byproduct of fallacious reasoning. Of course God has limitations! Can he be something other than what he is? Can he make it true that truth does not exist? Can he exist and not exist simultaneously? All of these things are objectively impossible. Can he tell a human to sin and still be morally perfect? No! Can he make someone be both dreaming and awake at once? No! These things are impossible, even for God.
Logic is the one thing that no other things can violate. Yes, I am certainly going to side with logic against anything that contradicts it because logic cannot be false under any circumstances. Argue against it, and you will have to use it. The only way you can be right about logic not always existing or not being inherently, universally true is if you are wrong. It is impossible for what I am saying about logic to not be true.
Okay, but what about this verse, Mat 19:26? If all things are possible with God, then how can the things you listed be impossible?
DeleteGod can do all things that are logically possible, and the Bible always shows God doing logically possible things. Since you keep trying to put the Bible over logic, I'll ask you an explicitly theological question. God sin and still be morally perfect?
DeleteIf the Bible is irrational, then at least the irrational parts are untrue. Elevating the Bible above reason is a hopelessly self-refuting exercise in defense of a conclusion that can't be true. If the Bible is true, neither it nor logic are "more" true than the other, as two truths are equally true. But that's IF the Bible is correct. Logic cannot be false, so its veracity is only denied by people who don't grasp the only things that can't be any other way. If the Bible is true, though, there will be no contradiction between the two of them.
Mat 5:48 says God is perfect and Malachi 3:6 says God doesn't change, so I can't exactly answer that question because he can't not be perfect, so he can't sin. We talked once before about sins of the father. We can't punish someone for what their father did under Torah, but God can and has. God is over us. He gives us the law, but does NOT have to abide by it himself.
DeleteWait, I'm confused, do you put logic over God or see them as both equally true and therefore have the same level of importance?
You can answer that question, because it is true that on the Christian worldview God cannot sin for the very reasons you cited. Of course God never violates his revealed laws. Imposing Biblical legal punishments on only an offender and not on his or her family members is not the same as God separately punishing a person's family in a different way. It's not as if things that contradict God's nature can become good.
DeleteCould God rape someone? If moral truths are rooted in his moral nature, and his nature never changes, then he cannot fail to abide by his own laws, not because the standard is external but because he cannot change; he is the standard and his nature remains constant. God cannot sin.
What are ALL the things you say God didn't create (I read your blog, but you only listed four things, is that it?) and why do you think God didn't create logic? Logic is reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity(Google def :P) why do you think God didn't create those principles?
DeleteLogic (and truth, which is ultimately a function of logic) and space have always existed uncreated; things like morality and consciousness, which are components of God's nature, have always existed because God has always existed. Anything that cannot be created must have always existed and anything that hinges on God's existence has always existed because God, like logic and space, never had a beginning.
DeleteLogic is a set of immaterial laws dealing with identity and what follows from certain things. A thing is what it is (the law of identity); a thing cannot be and not be the same way at the same time (the law of non-contradiction); a thing must either be or not be a certain way (the law of excluded middle). I will give an example of all three. A mathematical concept is a mathematical concept. A tablecloth cannot be entirely red and entirely blue at the same time. A person is either five years old or not five years old at a given time. God can't have created logic because logic cannot not exist. It's that simple, and I've proven this multiple times by now.
If there was no God, no created minds, and no matter, there would still be such a thing as truth. There would still be a way reality is--and reality would still be what it is (the law of identity). It would still be true that if something perceives then it exists as a conscious mind even if no consciousness perceives, and it would still be true that that since no matter exists then no trees exist. All other logical truths would still be true by necessity, meaning they could not be any other way. For instance, it would still be true that if all humans are bipedal and if Amanda is a human then Amanda is bipedal. Humans don't even have to exist for the latter to still be true, because this would still be correct. It's about what follows from a premise irrespective of whether or not the premise actually describes something about reality beyond the concept itself.
Anyone who argues that logic does not have to exist or that it is not inherently true inescapably refutes himself or herself. It is rather obvious what the solution to this is: stop pretending like a book, even the Bible, is infallible just by existing and stop pretending like anything can supercede logic. Such a thing is impossible, as a few moments of reflection can reveal, and it is not difficult at all to understand why. The Bible is only true if it conforms to the way reality is. Logic, contrarily, governs the way that all of reality is, regardless of what other contingent facts are true (scientific laws, moral truths, and so on). A contingent fact is something that depends on something else for its veracity. If the thing the fact depends on changes, that truth changes. Logic is necessarily true, meaning logical truths could not be any other way. They are NECESSARY. Nothing about them could be different.