There is a fact about Biblical circumcision that I have thus far not elaborated upon. It is so obvious, in one sense, that it is perhaps very easy to overlook: for circumcision to count as an outward sign of personal commitment to Yahweh, the penises of circumcised men must be seen by others. For circumcision to be a sign to a broad audience, the male body must be displayed publicly.
The first reference to circumcision in the Bible is in Genesis 17, with God manifesting himself to Abram, changing his name from Abram to Abraham, promising to bring nations into existence from him, and establishing a covenant with him. During this appearance Yahweh instructs Abraham and his male descendants (as well as foreign males who would live with the Israelites) to undergo circumcision as a formal "sign of the covenant" (Genesis 17:11). As I already stated, this could not qualify as an effective sign unless it was seen by others.
There is no way that a circumcised penis can serve as a general sign of anything unless it is visible. For a man’s circumcision to signify anything to another person at all, the man’s body, or at least the pubic region, must be exposed to public onlookers! In a society suffocated by prudery, the only people who would likely ever see a circumcised penis once a man is no longer a child would be the circumcised man himself or his wife, should he have one. But this is in dramatic conflict with the Biblical objective of Jewish circumcision. The entire point was that it showed to external onlookers that a man belonged to Yahweh.
Even many Christians who do not hold that circumcision remains a moral obligation for followers of Yahweh undergo circumcision. Does every circumcised Christian man need to walk around naked? Not at all! Just as the Bible does not condemn nudity because it is not sinful (Deuteronomy 4:2, Romans 7:7, 1 John 3:4), it never prescribes nudity as a morally mandatory thing. Human nudity is objectively good on the Christian worldview (Genesis 2:25, 1:31), and Genesis indirectly but strongly implies that God does prefer for humans to be naked since that is the state he created them to be in, but there is no obligation for any human to not wear clothing.
Not every man or woman is comfortable with being naked before others, even in front of friends, and not everyone has a desire to expose their body in public--whether because of personal preference, dissatisfaction with his or her body, a culturally ingrained sense of embarrassment, or a fear of experiencing physiological genital arousal. God never demanded that men be forced to expose their bodies to the public against their wills. It is immoral to force a person to be naked, even as a punishment for a Biblical crime. Any circumcised man who voluntarily wishes to be naked does not sin, however.
There is nothing shameful or immoral about men and women seeing and admiring human genitalia (which is entirely nonsexual on its own), or any other part of the human body, especially when that admiration or observation is theologically-charged. Conservative Christians who pretend like nudity is an affront to God can't maintain their charade by appealing to the book they claim to derive their values from, because the Bible actually says the opposite of what they mistake for the truth.
Hi! So are you saying that circumcision isn't a sign of the covenant unless it's seen?
ReplyDeleteThe only way for circumcision to be a sign to almost anyone at all is if it visible to others. Something can’t be much of a sign or indicator if it is never displayed.
DeleteHmm, but you haven't found any verses that specifically say that, right? Maybe circumcision is symbolic or just a commandment for our health? A lot of God's commandments are very beneficial for us, even if we don't realize it. I know someone who didn't believe in circumcision until her son got seriously sick because he wasn't circumcised and I've read studies about it being far better than not. Maybe this is one of those things. It also does set Christians apart from non-Christians.
DeleteThe conclusion logically follows from what the Bible does say whether or not the Bible specifies the specific thing that follows. If circumcision is a sign to other people, it must be visible to them (though I explained why this clearly does not mean that a man’s body must be visible against his will). Health is a reason many modern Christians might give for why God instructed the Jews to practice male circumcision, but that is never stated even once anywhere in the Bible. Might there be health benefits? Certainly. Is this the Biblical reason provided for circumcision? Not at all. Health might be a result of circumcision, but it is not the Biblical basis for the command.
DeleteDoes the Bible say that it's a sign to Other people, though? I thought it was a sign between God and his servants.
Delete"This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between ME AND YOU and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised." Gen 17:10
ReplyDeleteThat part you capitalized does not in any way mean that it was never intended to be a sign to other people. Genesis 17:11, the next verse, never says the sign itself was for God to see; it says the sign points to the covenant God made with Abraham. The sign isn’t for God. Verse 14 says that uncircumcised men were to be cut off from the Jewish people. How do how do you think someone would find out if a man was circumcised? Would they just take a man’s word for it?
DeleteNudity was present in Old Testament Jewish culture anyway (for instance, see Exodus 22:26-27), and seeing a man’s body is the only way to verify if he is in fact circumcised. There’s not anything about this claim that defies the Bible. Yes, conservative, legalistic Christians would probably panic upon reading this article. But that’s because their destructive asceticism drives many of their beliefs, rather than logic or Scripture.
No, but it does only say it's a token between God and his servants. Why would you say then that the sign isn't for God? I can see now a little more what you mean about breaking the covenant, but I'm not sure that in itself or the Exodus verse means that public nudity is okay. I don't feel like those things are very explicit.
DeleteEach conclusion that I have explained to you follows necessarily from the premises. Circumcision was a sign of a particular covenant made between God, Abraham, and Abraham’s descendants, but that does not mean that God needed circumcision to remind himself of the covenant. Unless God (and here I mean Yahweh, not Jesus, who is clearly described in Matthew 24 as not knowing everything) is ignorant of some truths it would not even make sense for him to need a sign of anything for his own sake.
DeleteWhether someone feels persuaded has nothing to do with whether or not there is proof for something, but Exodus 22:26-27 does explicitly say that the person using his/her cloak as security for a debt must receive it back at night because that person has no other clothing to sleep in. That is extremely blatant, although conservative Christians aren’t used to paying attention to details like this that are inconvenient for their tradition-based fallacies.
Besides, the very facts that human bodies, which God created naked (Genesis 2:25), are called “very good” (Genesis 1:31) and that Mosaic Law never condemns public nudity prove on their own that public nudity is not and cannot be sinful on the Christian worldview (Deuteronomy 4:2). There are other passages of the Bible that use alternative means to show that public nudity is not an evil thing. But the first few books of the Bible are enough to establish this with absolute logicality.
No, but that also doesn't mean that it's a sign to 'other people'. I think, if a child wasn't circumcised eight days after he was born, then people would know about it and that family would be rejected from the congregation.
DeleteI've never seen anywhere in the Bible that treats public nudity as a good thing. I've seen many instances where it was the cause of shame though like in Isa 20:4 and Isa 47:3
Genesis 17 says that circumcision was required even for male foreigners who would come to live among the Jews. Would all of these foreigners be only eight days old? Of course not!
DeleteNudity is clearly described as being good in Genesis 1-2, since that is how God created humans and the initial state of creation is good. The Bible plainly condemns adding to God’s moral revelation in multiple places (Deuteronomy 4:2, Matthew 15:3-9), which is the only way that someone could possibly argue against public nudity, so because of these two facts alone there cannot be anything Biblically wrong with it.
Your statement about not seeing a verse that “treats public nudity as a good thing” not only ignores the Genesis-based points I brought up which establish on their own that nudity is itself metaphysically good, but it also seems to communicate that you think nudity is sinful unless a Bible verse prescribes it. Genesis aside, that would be like saying that driving a blue car is morally questionable unless there is a specific Bible verse encouraging it!
That is not accurate moral epistemology. Contrarily, unless God specifically reveals that something is evil, or unless it follows with absolute logicality from some Biblical statement that a thing is evil (an example is that if drunkenness is evil but alcohol use isn’t, then simply using certain drugs for recreational purposes in itself isn’t immoral but getting high for recreational purposes is), it is not sinful on the Christian worldview.
Far from discouraging nudity, Isaiah 20 actually supports it. God cannot sin or instruct anyone to sin (James 1:13), meaning that any command of his to humans cannot be morally wrong, so the very fact that God told Isaiah to remain in a state of nudity for any period of time at all demonstrates that God does not condemn nudity itself. The nudity that God predicted the Egyptian captives would experience would be shameful (Isaiah 20:3-4) because that nudity was forced upon them following a defeat.
Seeing someone’s body against their will can certainly produce feelings of shame in the victim. This in no way means that nudity itself is shameful. All feelings of shame that people outside of contexts like this might experience about being naked in front of other people can, by logical necessity, only exist for one of two reasons, or perhaps both of them: 1) the feelings are conditioned by others or 2) they are nothing more than purely subjective, arbitrary perceptions that have nothing to do with ethics or metaphysics.
That's a good point I didn't think of that. But just because how God made people is good doesn't necessarily mean that public nudity is good and I'm not trying to add to God's words. There ARE instances in the Bible where seeing someone naked is wrong like with Noah in Gen 9:23 where Shem and Japheth did right and walked backward so that they wouldn't see their father naked. I'm not saying it's sinful (except for seeing your kin naked) I'm saying it's not supported. And just because God told Isaiah to do something doesn't necessarily mean we can tell others to do it. (like when God punishes children for the sins of the father but we are told not to) I don't know. I haven't decided if you're wrong or not. I'm going to look into it more
DeleteIt’s not even possible for public nudity to not be metaphysically good if God created the human body and if everything is good in its created state. I’m not saying public nudity is mandatory for anyone, since people do not have a moral obligation to forgo clothing, only that there is nothing sinful about it. It is objectively nonsinful. No one sins by wearing or not wearing any amount of clothing.
DeleteThe reason conservative Christians oppose nudity is not because the Bible condemns it. It isn’t dangerous, immoral, or offensive to God. They often genuinely believe it is sexual, and they inherit many legalistic teachings that make them gratuitously fear or misunderstand sexuality. Their twin errors of mistaking nonsexual things for sexual things and demonizing sexuality are destructive, irrational, and contra-Biblical. Even if nudity was inherently sexual, though, there would still be nothing wrong with it. However, it is not sexual in itself, whether or not people admit it.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAgain, QUOTES from “conservative” Christians ( an oxymoron if one presumes that “conservative” indicates strict adherence & devotion to actual CHRISTian teachings & morality “Love Thy Neighbor” “Do Not Judge” “Beatitudes” “Forgiveness” etc ) would bolster Your points/attacks/critiques.
ReplyDeleteBut You are Absolutely Correct, as humorous as the irony is, Circumcision does man•date at least some regular #PublicSocialNudism conspicuous to ALL as a Testimony. To top it off ( pardon the pun ), the fact that religious Jews Muslims & Christian clergy wear Hats ( Taqiyah Yamaka Zucchetto skullcaps etc to signify devotion & humility to The God Above Them ) but Hide their Un•Hooded Head/Glans in shame defies & belies beliefs & insults God’s Creation & the very Blessed Tool that permit Us to Express God’s Creativity via Sexual Pro•Creation ( so God doesn’t have to do it all creating each & everyone of Us from dirt each time HimSelf which has got to be dirtier, time consuming, & less Fun than Watching Us “Do IT” ... Since God Sees Everything & is PERV•ading ... ! ... Sorry. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ... Frankly, #MakingLove should have a Godly/Spiritual aspect if it is to be meaningful & beneficial at all. ).
Nonetheless, The Forced Practice, imposed on voiceless defenseless & usually screamingly protesting at the top of their little lungs, undermines & defies the Notion that One should Voluntarily & Maturely Thoughtfully find & be devoted to God, & that devotion is Joyful not PainFull, if that belief & practice is to have any integrity sustainability & value; hence, circumcision of infants is immoral, unholy, ungodly on its face & clearly just a barbaric & tyrannical practice that should have Ended via Christ’s Teachings. Thankfully, it is increasingly going out of fashion; better late than never.